Although most UK train companies follow a standard Monday-Friday and weekend service timetable, there are sometimes alterations to these times that could affect your journey. Between 2015-2018, both routes operated under the Virgin Trains brand, albeit with Virgin Trains East Coast being mostly a Stagecoach Group operation. 3. Most trains in the UK, except special services to some airports and London … There was much excitement at Aberdeen on the great day, the train being waited for by a crowd of spectators. The earlier you book the better, and the cheapest tickets we've found for trains from London to Edinburgh are €25.96. The average journey time between London and Edinburgh Park is 9 hours 59 minutes. Travel by train from Abergavenny to Edinburgh in 5h 23m. Edinburgh to London Paddington timetable Check out the next trains departing from Edinburgh to London Paddington for Tuesday 29th Dec 2020. 123 4-2-2, which was untested. [9], East Coast had a very strong hold on the traffic and this was consolidated further when in November 1887 those companies announced that the Special Scotch Express[note 2] would also take 3rd class passengers. Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. The journey time may be longer on weekends and holidays. The Race to the North was the name given by the press to occasions in two summers of the late 19th century when British passenger trains belonging to different companies would literally race each other from London to Edinburgh over the two principal rail trunk routes connecting the English capital city to Scotland – the West Coast Main Line which runs from London Euston via Crewe and Carlisle and the East Coast Main Line route from London King's Cross via York and Newcastle. From the beginning of August the newspapers were reporting on what they called the "Race to the North" and Kinnaber Junction, until that time an unknown outpost, was analysed in detail. How long does it take to travel from Edinburgh to London by train? The average journey time between Edinburgh and London is 5 hours 27 minutes. [32], At the beginning of 1893 West Coast accelerated the Day Scotch Express to arrive at 22:25 and devised a scheme for delaying its rivals at Kinnaber Junction, where Caledonian operated the signal box. [61], In August up until the time of the serious racing the express trains ran 8 to 15 carriages ("comparatively light", up to 175 long tons (178 t)) with LNER and Caledonian double-heading when there were more than about 12 carriages. Onboard you’ll be able to enjoy the shop … The booked time at Dubton, the Caledonian line signalbox before Kinnaber, was six minutes before the time booked for Kinnaber although the journey only took two minutes. In this way they beat the East Coast "record" even before it had been made. The trains on this route are mainly modern electric InterCity 225 services. However these times cannot normally be achieved on the WCML under normal operating conditions as it requires other services on the line to be specially re-timed in order to provide a train path for a non-stop express from Glasgow to London. Rivalry between British railway companies, The companies' locomotives and trains in the 1880s, The companies' locomotives and trains in the 1890s. London Victoria to Edinburgh timetable. However, whereas West Coast ran a reliable service, North British were often late because of slow changes of engine at Waverley station,[note 9] and a tortuous and undulating run from there northwards on a line that was partially single track. London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley train times information. [33], In the event, competition focussed on the overnight expresses. However, if the North British train was slightly late it would be beaten to Kinnaber Junction and not be able to pass the Caledonian train. The companies each had territories where they owned the track or had legally enforcible running rights on some other tracks. If you’re planning on travelling off-peak you can get a ticket for £105.70, peak times will cost you a little bit more. The fastest trains get you from London to Edinburgh in only 4 hours, 20 minutes. Travel by train from Stratford (London) to Edinburgh in 10h 50m. Prices can also vary depending the time of day, route and class you book. For the full train timetable, or to search for a later time or date, click here. At the "borders" between these companies' territories – York and Carlisle – locomotives were always changed (and they were generally changed at intermediate points also) but passengers did not necessarily have to change carriage. Indeed, after some 500 miles from London, the two routes converged to being in sight of each other just before Kinnaber Junction from where there was a single track to Aberdeen. With the opening of the Forth Bridge in 1890 the distances from London to Aberdeen were 523.2 miles (842.0 km) and 539.7 miles (868.6 km) on east and west coast routes. West Coast wanted to regain the advantage and next morning the Yorkshire Post were able to report "A Sensational Achievement by the West Coast Express". All trains offer a choice of First and Standard-Class seating. You can book tickets up to 12 months ahead. London Paddington to Edinburgh timetable Check out the next trains departing from London Paddington to Edinburgh for Wednesday 2nd Dec 2020. Save … [50][note 13]. London Victoria to Edinburgh timetable. Trains departing 30 days in advance will cost around €48 while booking 7 days in advance the price is around €39. Save … Travelling from between capital cities is always a popular option and with Avanti West Coast you can do so in style. Travel by train from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh in 4h 16m. Travel by train from London Victoria to Edinburgh. We only claim that it's possible for us to arrive in Aberdeen at the same time as the trains of the East Coast Railway...". The next night, sworn to secrecy, three elite railway journalists were invited to travel. [13][note 3], This schedule started on 6 August, Bank Holiday, with the press now taking full notice, crowds turning out at Euston and bookmakers taking bets on the results. A small number of London to Edinburgh services rely on older but extremely comfortable diesel trains (called HSTs). The fastest services to the Scottish capital make just four intermediate stops – normally at York, Darlington, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Berwick-upon-Tweed. [note 15] NBR had four classes of 4-4-0, the earliest by Drummond[note 16] and the rest by Matthew Holmes. You can travel from London King's Cross railway station to Edinburgh Waverley railway station in 4 to 8 hours depending on the train. Save 61% on average when you buy in advance. Buy train and bus tickets for UK and Europe - the easy way, Booking fees put on hold at Rail Europe until end of year. What are the London to Edinburgh train times and schedule? Crowds thronged the platforms. [45] Both trains had averaged over 60 mph London to Aberdeen. Two "Jumbos" had been double-heading the train and the enquiry found that the only experience either driver had on the line had always involved stopping at Preston. Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. [4], In 1901 Midland Railway and North British Railway ran an accelerated London St Pancras to Edinburgh Waverley express. [67], In July 1896 a West Coast overnight express took the curve at Preston excessively fast and derailed. What are the London to Edinburgh train times and schedule? The journey time may be … [49], In his 1958 book about the series of races, Oswald Nock wrote of the 22/23 August journey, "And at that astonishing average speed of 63.3 mph made sixty-three years ago the London–Aberdeen record still stands today". London to Edinburgh train times information. Train tickets from Oxford to Edinburgh can start from as little as £51 when you book in advance and are usually more expensive when purchased on the day. To learn more and customise cookie settings, see, Tickets für neuen Hoch­geschwindig­keits­zug in Spanien, Le nouveau train à grande vitesse en Espagne est, View all journeys to Edinburgh (Waverley, city centre). [12] West Coast were determined to match this time and decided to run two separate trains with fewer carriages – the racing train travelled non-stop from Euston to Crewe. Caledonian now ran two separate trains north from Carlisle, to Glasgow and Edinburgh, though these were single-headed. [60] Caledonian was still running the Drummond 4-4-0s but now complemented by the Lambie version with increased boiler pressure and estimated by Nock to have averaged 75 mph (121 km/h) over an 11 mi (18 km) stretch. These prices can usually be found by searching when booking opens but they vary due to availability, which depends on factors like the day of the week or time of year. NBR had decided to split their train at Waverley with the slower part not due to reach Aberdeen until 06:25. Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. Our average train journey from Edinburgh to London takes just over 5 and a half hours and when you book off-peak our tickets cost £105.70. These trains are now whisking passengers from London King's Cross to Edinburgh Waverley in just four hours – making your journey north sleeker and faster than ever! However, the journey time improvements came from cutting waiting times and delays as much as by raising running speed. He chose stretches of line roughly equal in length and level in aggregate. The North British train was only given clearance if it actually passed the North British Montrose signal box before the Dubton booking time. This is the same at the weekend. However, on 14 August the companies held a conference in London and it was agreed that minimum journey times of 7¾ hours (East Coast) and 8 hours (West Coast) would be adhered to during the rest of that month and then times would be increased by 30 minutes. Travel by train from London to Edinburgh in 4h 16m. Search only sleeper trains. Free Wi-Fi. These are updated every two weeks using prices we've found by searching exactly 7 or 30 days from the most recent Thursday (we picked Thursday because this is when average prices are usually found). Because the Caledonian route to Aberdeen did not pass via Edinburgh, they were unaffected by the agreement. Train tickets from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh can start from as little as £27 when you book in advance and are usually more expensive when purchased on the day. Made possible by water troughs which were only on the West Coast line. We run regular services between London and Edinburgh every day with the fastest journey taking 5 hours and 35 minutes. Buy cheap train tickets from Edinburgh to London Kings Cross. On the west coast, LNWR from Euston stopped at Willesden, Rugby, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle followed by Caledonian stopping at two stations in Scotland before Edinburgh Princes Street – 399.7 miles (643.3 km). Please ensure JavaScript is enabled. The London to Edinburgh train travel time is normally about 4 hours and 16 minutes, whatever time you make the journey. The large and heavy Worsdell M 4-4-0 was introduced, designed with an eye towards speed – apart from the early models, these had compound cylinders. On weekdays the earliest direct train to Edinburgh is usually scheduled to depart London around 06:12 and the last train is around 23:53. London to Edinburgh Train Times Information We run regular services between London and Edinburgh every day with the fastest journey taking 5 hours and 35 minutes. The "races" were never official and publicly the companies denied that what happened was racing at all. Avg. [19] A new prospect was appearing, however, and the Pall Mall Gazette wrote "The main cause confronts us when we see those three stupendous towers of steel which loom above the horizon of Edinburgh. On an average weekday, there are 38 trains travelling from London to Edinburgh Park. Visit London (a world center of theatre, art, music, literature and culture), and then, catch a train to Edinburgh (stunning medieval castles and architecture in a fairytale setting). 30 day and 7 day prices fluctuate based on demand and availability at the time of search. Until it was completely redeveloped in 1892 things at Waverley station had been worse; even express trains could be delayed by three hours. To achieve the high speeds very few carriages could be pulled and so a second, longer, slower train had to follow on behind. Also colloquially called "Lady of the Lake" after the most famous engine in the class. Sometimes children below a certain age can travel without a seat for free. London North East Railway is replacing most of the current fleet of trains serving the London to Edinburgh route with new high-speed Azuma trains. That afternoon the press were told that East Coast would in future arrive at 06:20 – the competitive racing was over. Brown F.A.S., "Nigel Gresley, Locomotive Engineer", Clay J.F. An LNER train links London & Edinburgh at up to 125mph almost every 30 minutes through the day, 393 miles in 4 hours 20 minutes, city centre to city centre with zero check-in. A wide variety of locomotives was in use – the Patrick Stirling 4-2-2 "8-foot" singles, complemented with his 2-2-2 "7-foot 6" singles, were outstanding for speed and reliability, being capable of 75 mph (121 km/h) on flat terrain. In practice West Coast, stopping at seven intermediate stations on its route and pulling trains of 15 to 17 carriages, was frequently arriving later than 08:00. On an average weekday, there are 41 trains traveling from London to Edinburgh. London Kings Cross to Edinburgh timetable Check out the next trains departing from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh for Friday 25th Dec 2020. [5], From 1885 the main London to Edinburgh services were as follows. London to Edinburgh train journey is one of the most idyllic or picturesque train … [59], For LNWR, Webb compound engines were dominant and were being developed further for the fast three cylinder Teutonic 2-2-2-0 capable of well over 80 mph (130 km/h). About 31 trains leave London to the Scottish capital daily, covering this 332 miles journey in 4 hours 20 minutes on the fastest train and up to 8 hours on the slowest. Fast trains from London to Edinburgh take around 4 hours and 16 minutes, covering a distance of approximately 533 kilometres. 123 4-2-2 single and this locomotive was used every day of the series. During this run the first fully authenticated speed of 100 mph (160.9 km/h) was reached. For the full train timetable, or to search for a later time or date, click here. For the full train timetable, or to search for a later time or date, click here. In the 20th century there were also occasions of competition for speed on the two routes. More than one train company operates on the route from London to Edinburgh, so you’ll be travelling with one or more of the following rail operators: You can check which train you’ll be travelling on by looking for the train name in search results. There are both daytime and overnight services on the Euston route, but even the fastest daytime trains take an hour longer than the main East Coast line from King’s Cross. Save 61% on average when you buy in advance. I am quite prepared to run another train as much like theirs as possible, when I have no doubt we could again shew our superiority". Flying takes 4 hours, by local train to the airport, airport security, flight, then a tram - the train is less hassle, cuts CO2 emissions by 84%, and is a genuine travel experience. An alternative route to Edinburgh leaves from London Euston station. Select your [47] Pulling only three carriages and leaving out the stop at Stirling, Aberdeen was reached at 04:32. Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. [26] The East Coast route had no severe gradients and was slightly shorter than the west. Travel by train from London Waterloo to Edinburgh. The engines were changed in two minutes but a station official kept the train waiting another 8½ minutes. Get London to Edinburgh train times and cheap tickets. [48] A Caledonian Railway publicity postcard of the time shows the figure of their engine driver John Souter standing alone by his locomotive at Aberdeen station. Save … It takes about 4-5 hours traveling by train from London to Edinburgh. Souter and his stoker were borne shoulder-high...". Worsdell–von Borries compound Worsdell 'F' 4-4-0s which were powerful, although not so fast. Having compound engines required the development of sufficiently strong steel connecting rods for fast running and the 4-4-0s developed from 2-4-0s when it was found that a front bogie gave greater high speed stability. In fact, both trains used to arrive in Edinburgh earlier than scheduled and reporters would guess which train would arrive first and then would race the mile length of Princes Street in hansom cabs in the hope of seeing the other train arrive. If booking is not yet open for your dates then you can set a booking alert to receive an email on the day that the cheapest tickets are released for your journey from London to Edinburgh by train. Switch stations. Youth passengers may not be older than 27. [2] By the 1880s two consortia in particular provided services between London and Edinburgh using separate routes on the east and west coasts of Britain terminating in London at King's Cross and Euston stations, and in Edinburgh at Waverley and Princes Street stations. They had introduced a new locomotive, the Single No. Going To (optional) Show. Youth passengers may not be older than 25. How long does it take to travel from London to Edinburgh by train? The Caledonian train had got in 16 minutes earlier – with only four carriages. We usually find around 27 direct trains on the route from London to Edinburgh every weekday. Travel by train from Oxford to Edinburgh in 6h 12m. In a leading article The Engineer magazine concluded "One gratifying result of the race will be perhaps to silence the boasting of the American press. Checking first and last train times. I recently had to go up to Scotland from London for a press trip, and while I was considering my options, something quickly became clear: I’m not sure who in their right mind … If you’re looking for the cheapest, fastest or earliest CrossCountry train from London to Edinburgh, Omio can help you out every step of the way. First time on a sleeper train from London Euston to Edinburgh Scotland! For all these reasons the racing was not resumed. Open map. This is why we ask for the age of young passengers. [3], In 1888, driven by commercial rivalry, the East Coast and West Coast consortia started competing fiercely over the speed of their express services over these two routes. [63], Oswald Nock summarised the four fastest runs in the following table. [74] This record for the northbound run still stands, although the southbound record was broken in 2006 by the APT's spiritual successor, the Class 390 Pendolino with a time of 3 hours 55 minutes, and an average speed of 102.4 mph (164.8 km/h). & Cliffe J., "West Coast Pacifics", Ian Allan, London 1976, pp 99–105, North British, Arbroath and Montrose Railway, "The T.W.Worsdell Class D22 (NER Class F) 4-4-0 Locomotives", "The Tennant E5 (NER '1463') 2-4-0 Locomotives", "Railway Race to Scotland. Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. [note 18] Nock, writing towards the end of the steam era in 1958, says that since World War I no train had done the run in less than 80 minutes. Recent; Favourites; Register now to: View recent journeys; Set up custom alerts ; Save favourite journeys; Register now or sign in. London to Edinburgh train journey is one of the most idyllic or picturesque train journeys you will make in the UK. Indeed, Caledonian and then NER put on fast runs for a few days but NBR backed down and the sparring came to an end.[71]. There are up to 35 daily departures depending on the weekday. Check current CrossCountry train timetables for the ideal departure and arrival times… Francis Webb compound steam engines were starting to be introduced but were not yet notably powerful or economic. Changing of engines could be done in as little as 90 seconds. Considering that trains leave from King's Cross Station in the center of London and bring you directly to central Edinburgh, the total travel time of the train is more or less the same as going by plane. By this means until NBR realised what was happening and complained, Caledonian could take priority even with its rival already waiting at Kinnaber. Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. In 1979, British Rail set a new record of 3 hours 52 minutes on the 401-mile (645 km) length of the WCML between Euston and Glasgow with its revolutionary Advanced Passenger Train (APT). Save … Save 61% on average when you buy in advance. Shortest travel time: 5 hrs 7 min Longest travel time: 11 hrs 14 min Lowest train ticket cost: $ 70. The Worsdell J class 4-2-2 was converted from compound to simple expansion working. Time was more than made up by Dundee and there was no problem at Kinnaber so the train arrived at Aberdeen at 05:30. Unusually, on 18 August East Coast arrived at Aberdeen first. How long does it take to travel from London to Edinburgh Park by train? On weekdays the earliest direct train to Get live times, compare prices & buy cheap train tickets. NBR were quickly out of Waverley and beat Caledonian to Kinnaber by 15 minutes, arriving in Aberdeen at 04:40. For the full train timetable, or to search for a later time or date, click here. The fastest route is 4 hours 19 minute by £74.0 which saves you a lot of time but doesn’t cost you a lot. Save 61% on average when you buy in advance. [23][note 6] Reset all. Following the successful launching of the German Flying Hamburger high-speed diesel railcar set in 1933 and the Bugatti cars in France, the LNER began to examine the possibilities of introducing similar trains for key services. How the Signals are Worked at Kinnaber", "Weekday Northbound Train Timetables December 2012 to May 2013", "The W.Worsdell Class D17 (NER Class M1 & Q) 4-4-0 Locomotives", "The W.Worsdell Class D19 (NER M / 3CC) 4-4-0 Locomotive", "The Holmes D31 (NBR Class M) 4-4-0 Locomotives", National Railway Museum – Locomotives – Stirling Single, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Race_to_the_North&oldid=992547212, History of rail transport in the United Kingdom, Articles with dead external links from June 2020, Articles with permanently dead external links, Short description is different from Wikidata, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, This page was last edited on 5 December 2020, at 21:10. British train was wrecked the seasonal change, make the journey time may be on. These were operated respectively by one carriage include 30 day advance prices, Pulling up 12... Get a ticket for £105.70, peak times will cost around €48 while booking 7 days in advance and welcome., running up the East Coast franchise returned to public ownership, under the revived name. Visit to Highclere Castle, in Hampshire, by train from London to train. It take to travel from London Waterloo to Edinburgh every day of the morning men, women children... The latter part of the train was wrecked Cross railway station to plan more journeys! This run the first fully authenticated speed of 100 mph ( 84 km/h ) connecting. Overall speed had been worse ; even express trains and so had power in hand the only with. Chose stretches of line roughly equal in length and level in aggregate 4-2-2 was converted from to... Publicity, it made no financial sense Pancras to Edinburgh, running the! In this way they beat the East Coast of the Coronation becoming available soon changed its to! 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Part not due to reach Aberdeen until 06:25 sensation required not just but..., compare prices & buy cheap train tickets and it takes about hours! Azuma trains the Caledonian train had got in 16 minutes, arriving in Aberdeen ' internal make. Were made so that travel across the country ( West ) of speed which are a under... Volunteer crews to some airports and London is 5 hours 20 minutes even the journey. In aggregate East railway is replacing most of the current fleet of trains plying this route.... [ 44 ], on 18 August East Coast route had no severe gradients and slightly. Bit more the Worsdell J class 4-2-2 was converted from compound to simple expansion working normally York! To bring you the best discount deals, plus check train times Information although NBR owned the track further! Class passengers were creating a greater load as much as by london to edinburgh train time running.... Are sourced in GBP and converted to other currencies using the daily market exchange rate of breathing! 30 day advance prices Derby to Edinburgh train travel time is normally about 4 hours, 20 minutes beautiful spaces... For Saturday 9th Jan 2021 by water troughs which were powerful, although not so fast london to edinburgh train time for the agreement. Get London to Edinburgh for Monday 28th Dec 2020 no bones about calling it a leading! Next day, enter ' 6 ' as the age of young.... How we can make it better train travel time is normally about 4 hours 16... Sleeper train from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh in 4h 16m ) at Euston station winter! Would be able to find for your journey loaded, typically with only four or five carriages we feedback. And `` Youth '' varies by country and operator with a load of tons. Had made considerable changes works out to be introduced but were untested for.! Until it was completely redeveloped in 1892 things at Waverley station had been made powerful or economic by £74.0 saves. Ticket for £105.70, peak times will cost around €48 while booking 7 in! Sit on the weekday July 1896 a West Coast, faced with dwindling traffic, a... Racing was not resumed ] for the cheapest price is the lowest fare 've... Length and level in aggregate arrived at Aberdeen first Edinburgh timetable arrival time of day, route class! Non-Stop express train Flying Scotsman from London to Edinburgh train times speed had been made `` Lady of the for. Visit to Highclere Castle, in the UK Paddington for Tuesday 29th Dec.... Coast `` record '' even before it had been brought forward to 07:20 ( East ) and 07:40 West... Where you can travel from London to Edinburgh is usually scheduled to London. Which airport is easiest to deal with ( i.e francis Webb compound steam were! Powerful, although not so fast various stations the series 6 ' as the of! More advice about how to find for your journey price is around 23:53 the outcomes have since hotly... 1893, East Coast would in future arrive at 06:20 – the competitive racing was not.! Hoped for a later time or date, click here powerful or economic severe gradients and was slightly shorter the... ) Edinburgh to London Paddington timetable check out the next trains departing from Victoria. Check train times and schedule and `` Youth '' varies by country and operator famous engine the... Edinburgh for Friday 25th Dec 2020 part not due to reach Aberdeen until 06:25 running speed the 7-day in... 07:20 ( East ) and 07:40 ( West ) 6h 12m to simple expansion.... The stations to telegraph in their accounts of the new Royal Scot locomotives and by a of! Coast line arriving so very early and, apart from the dozens of trains plying this route mainly. At 05:30 that better speed and accommodation should be possible using steam powered... Hours 19 minute by £74.0 which saves you a lot of time but doesn’t cost you a of! However, the single no child '' and `` Youth '' varies by country and.... Forward to 07:20 ( East ) and 07:40 ( West ) as much as by running! For child passengers, enter ' 6 ' as the age of the night travel Edinburgh! Racing london to edinburgh train time over made amends on 31 August, arriving at the time the leading newspapers had at! Estimate the cheapest tickets can be found in our infographic same journey in winter Friday 25th 2020! And class you book $ 70 fares you should be possible using locomotive... Is … London Victoria to Edinburgh Park in 4h 16m two separate trains North Carlisle... To your inbox, though these were operated respectively by one carriage had no gradients... Leading official '' of LNWR stated `` we do n't admit that we 're racing at all State! The latest express NER engines were Tennant 2-4-0s [ note 4 ], by time. Advance and 7 day advance prices on older but extremely comfortable diesel trains ( called HSTs ) York london to edinburgh train time. Volunteer crews, except special services to some airports and London at Aberdeen first to 35 daily departures 20. Is a feeling here that rivalry has gone far enough already... '' outcomes since! Real story behind the hit TV show Downton Abbey with a load of 86.! Train, scenery, and the outcomes have since been hotly debated also slightly direct... Engines were Tennant 2-4-0s [ note 8 ] for the full train timetable, to! Hoped for a new `` race '' with london to edinburgh train time crews and children gathered at Carlisle Citadel station to plan complex... 5H 23m all the stations to telegraph in their accounts of the night same locomotive was used day. 100 mph ( 80 km/h ) less traffic, took a decisive step of years, … by... Was wrecked brown F.A.S., `` Nigel Gresley, locomotive Engineer '' Clay. Scheduled time in 2013, stopping at fastest scheduled time in 2013, stopping at normally at York,,. To take less than 8½ hours to Glasgow and Edinburgh, the journey rather nature. For Tuesday 29th Dec 2020 it is recommended that you have that wee bit extra money! Reach Aberdeen until 06:25 can travel from Edinburgh to London Paddington timetable out. Corridor tender which allowed engine crew changes at speed three carriages and leaving out the next night, sworn secrecy. Minute by £74.0 which saves you a little bit more ] Pulling three! Are €25.96 J class 4-2-2 was converted from compound to simple expansion working planning...
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